If you were sent here a result of a Web Search why don't you check out the current Forums.
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id AA212226383; Thu Apr 27 16:59:43 1995
From: bkelley (Brian Kelley)
Message-Id: <199504272059.AA212226383@pms706.pms.ford.com>
Subject: Re: Message Archive somewhere?
To: PWarner@palindrome.com (PWarner) (PWarner)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 95 16:59:43 EDT
Cc: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
In-Reply-To: <9503277990.AA799019847@internet.palindrome.com>; from "PWarner" at Apr 27, 95 2:57 pm
Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85]
Paul Warner writes:
> Is there a message archive from this list?
There hasn't been, but I've been meaning to do it for a some time
now. I've saved a lot of the better discussion and have 108K worth of
material.
I just now added the necessary code (all one line of it :-( to archive
all postings to the list. Unfortunately, there isn't any anonymous
ftp access to our site. I will try and get MajorDomo setup so that
you can request the archive (and will post an announcement when it
is working).
Brian
---
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id AA215757668; Thu Apr 27 17:21:08 1995
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 17:21:08 -0400
From: bkelley (Brian Kelley)
Message-Id: <199504272121.AA215757668@pms706.pms.ford.com>
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Subject: The coat hanger thing
Some have misinterpreted my message on the coat hanger thread. I
merely intended to limit further discussion on "welding with coat
hangers".
Anyone with tanks and torches can certainly afford to buy rods.
Welding shops are common. Most of the hardware stores in the rather
Yuppie/student town that I live in (Ann Arbor, MI) sell welding rods,
as do the huge chain home improvement stores (Builders Square, HQ,
etc).
I consider the subject of welding race cars entirely appropriate for
the list. However, do consider that there are many books available on
the subject. If you've bought a welder, you should probably consider
buying a book.
Brian
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From: Chris D Harvey <chris@s1.gov>
Message-Id: <9504272151.AA14433@guardian.s1.gov>
Subject: Rear Upright Fabrication
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 95 14:51:32 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4dev PL32]
Hello Racefabers,
I am in the process of designing/building a small Sports Racing
car for SCCA road racing competition. My question for the day is as
follows.
90 percent of the purpose built cars running in the class are
using the same rear uprights. They are manufactured by a gentle-
man in southern California and are made from sand cast aluminum.
Because I am not happy with the geometry of these uprights I
would like to fabricate my own. I figured that the easiest (hah!)
method would be to fabricate them from steel tubing, and sheet
steel. Now to the question......What would be the most appropiate
material for this application (1020, 4130, 4340, Titanium, Unobtanium,
etc.)
My choice: .02thin Unobtanium ;-)
Any information will be greatly apperciated.
--
***********************************************************
* Christopher Harvey 1 3 5 *
* chris@s1.gov |__|__|__ *
* Livermore, CA. USA | | | | *
* 2 4 6 R *
* "The easiest way to make a SMALL fortune in racing *
* ........is to start with a BIG one! -Roger Penske *
***********************************************************
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id AA12508; Fri, 28 Apr 95 10:52:07 +0100
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 95 10:52:06 +0100
From: drabik@gtl.georgiatech-metz.fr (Timothy DRABIK)
Message-Id: <9504280952.AA12508@gtl.georgiatech-metz.fr>
To: chris@s1.gov
Subject: Re: Rear Upright Fabrication
Cc: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Dear Chris,
> Hello Racefabers,
>
> I am in the process of designing/building a small Sports Racing
> car for SCCA road racing competition. My question for the day is as
> follows.
>
> 90 percent of the purpose built cars running in the class are
> using the same rear uprights. They are manufactured by a gentle-
> man in southern California and are made from sand cast aluminum.
> Because I am not happy with the geometry of these uprights I
> would like to fabricate my own. I figured that the easiest (hah!)
> method would be to fabricate them from steel tubing, and sheet
> steel. Now to the question......What would be the most appropiate
> material for this application (1020, 4130, 4340, Titanium, Unobtanium,
> etc.)
>
> My choice: .02thin Unobtanium ;-)
>
> Any information will be greatly apperciated.
>
> --
> ***********************************************************
> * Christopher Harvey 1 3 5 *
I am interested in your situation. First of all, who is this guy in So. Cal.?
I might be interested in his uprights for my application (road-going, aluminum
V8 Spitfire tube-frame special).
On to your question, I must first qualify my result with the statement that
I have never made an upright, nor worked with all the materials you list.
1020 would be safe, because the high alloy steels require great care in
welding so as not to leave a brittle joint. That is, preheating and stress-
relieving or re-heat-treating.
If you have the right person doing the welding and heat-treating, I think
4130 would be a good choice because it develops good strength in thin
sections, and is heat-treatable to a pretty high strength value. Presumably
finish machining (i.e. bearing seats and holes for rod end bolts) would be
done after heat-treating.
Finally, there is a source for CAST STAINLESS STEEL uprights apparently used
by the Trans Am crowd. These may be too strong and heavy, but here goes:
VSE
23865 Fairfield
Carmel, CA 93923
(408) 649-8423
I would like to hear more about your project.
Tim
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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 21:45:00 +0000
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: welding rods
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Message-Id: <120999.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us>
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059
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-> Well, people use what they have on hand... I'm attempting to get
-> samples of non-fluxed rods so I can do a comparison.
You can get bare rods in any composition you want, with the alloy
clearly marked on the box or cross-referenced in the maker's catalog.
-> I was surprised at how little junk (besides cu) I found.
It's hard to draw wire if you have too much silicon. Commercial steels
typically incorporate a certain amount of scrap, but any of the good
stuff - molybdenum, vanadium, etc. - is typically scavenged during the
process.
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id AA250470753; Fri Apr 28 10:52:33 1995
From: bkelley (Brian Kelley)
Message-Id: <199504281452.AA250470753@pms706.pms.ford.com>
Subject: Re: Rear Upright Fabrication
To: drabik@gtl.georgiatech-metz.fr
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 95 10:52:33 EDT
Cc: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
In-Reply-To: <9504280952.AA12508@gtl.georgiatech-metz.fr>; from "Timothy DRABIK" at Apr 28, 95 10:52 am
Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85]
Tim Drabik writes:
> Finally, there is a source for CAST STAINLESS STEEL uprights apparently used
> by the Trans Am crowd. These may be too strong and heavy, but here goes:
>
> VSE
> 23865 Fairfield
> Carmel, CA 93923
> (408) 649-8423
I agree that would be too strong and heavy for Chris' application.
Also, for a T/A application, these would be front uprights, not driven
rears.
The Roush cars use uprights fabricated from sheet, not cast. They're
impressively lightweight.
Brian
--
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To: Chris D Harvey <chris@s1.gov>
Cc: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com, boshea@wpine.com
Subject: Re: Rear Upright Fabrication
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 27 Apr 1995 14:51:32 PDT."
<9504272151.AA14433@guardian.s1.gov>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 12:12:07 -0400
From: "Brian O'Shea" <boshea@wpine.com>
>
>Hello Racefabers,
>
> I am in the process of designing/building a small Sports Racing
>car for SCCA road racing competition. My question for the day is as
>follows.
>
> 90 percent of the purpose built cars running in the class are
> using the same rear uprights. They are manufactured by a gentle-
> man in southern California and are made from sand cast aluminum.
> Because I am not happy with the geometry of these uprights I
> would like to fabricate my own. I figured that the easiest (hah!)
> method would be to fabricate them from steel tubing, and sheet
> steel. Now to the question......What would be the most appropiate
> material for this application (1020, 4130, 4340, Titanium, Unobtanium,
> etc.)
How do you want to modify the originals? If you just want to move things
around a little, I beleive that you can have them welded to change the pick up
points to suit your needs.
>
> My choice: .02thin Unobtanium ;-)
Nahh, I tried that stuff, it's not what it's cracked up to be...
-bos
+***********************************************************************+
+ +
+ Brian O'Shea White Pine Software +
+ Network/OS Software Engineer 15 Messenger Square +
+ boshea@wpine.com Suite 8A +
+ Voice 508-699-9163 Plainville MA, 02762 +
+ Fax 508-695-2378 +
+ +
+ All it takes is all you've got. +
+ +
+***********************************************************************+
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Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 13:43:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dirk Broer <BROERD@kaos.gsfc.nasa.gov>
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Message-Id: <950428134304.2d8@kaos.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Welding Rods
>Most steel welding rods I have seen are coated with copper.
>it ssems like copper just burns away before steel melts.
>I never had trouble with copper coating.
Maybe for gas welding but not for TIG. The copper can contaminate the TIG weld
. Copper coating reduces (eliminates?) rusting of the rod.
Something kind of interesting though - an article that I read insisted that
when TIG welding the filler rod takes on some of the properties of the base
metal (carbon content etc.) This allows a single filler rod to be a one rod
fits all steels. I have only done mild steel welding but I'm planning on
fooling with chrom moly. I intend to build a few objects and then test with a
large hammer ( Its my understanding that improper pre-heating and improper
stress relieving causes brittleness ). I will try to weld the chrome moly to
some scrap mild steel and see how it goes. The article I read said a mild
steel filler rod will do the trick.
A further question. When welding chrommoly with a oxy/acetalene torch, pre-
heating and stress relieving is done with same torch. Are the requirements the
same with a TIG welder? I know this is a little off the origional topic, but
the TIG seems to concentrate the heat much better, and I was wondering if this
eliminates the need for pre-heating (not alot of expansion).
Dirk
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id AA283046271; Fri Apr 28 17:57:51 1995
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 17:57:51 -0400
From: bkelley (Brian Kelley)
Message-Id: <199504282157.AA283046271@pms706.pms.ford.com>
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Subject: Milliken book order info
Here is the ordering information on the Milliken book that I have
mentioned. I should add that Bill Milliken isn't the sole author. It
just sticks in my mind that way because I met him at the SAE conference
in December (and it's easier typing one name ;-)
SAE order number R-146. The SAE's phone number is 412-776-4841.
_Race Car Vehicle Dynamics_, Copyright 1995. ISBN 1-56091-526-9.
Nope, I don't get kick backs or anything.
Brian
---
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From: CDM888888@aol.com
Message-Id: <950428190803_100007847@aol.com>
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Subject: RE Potato Chip Clutches
I missed the original post(s?) on this, but I think I got the gist of it from
Bob's response. I get the impression that somebody is considering a
multi-disk clutch (maybe Brian and his Mustang), and that launches are of
particular concern. I can give the benefit of lessons learned from hundreds
of Pro Solo and Solo II launches over the course of 2 seasons with
QuarterMaster 7.25" and 5" 2-disk clutches. Just to establish a little
credibility, the results included several Pro Solo class wins, two overall
challenge wins, one SP3 national championship, a DSPL national championship
as well as a handful of Divisional and National Tour wins and a national
rookie-of-the-year award (none of them for my driving, unfortunately).
First comment: ya gotta do it. All the good things that Bob has to say about
the low-inertia clutches are true.
As for the disadvantages, I'll second the comments about the heat build-up
and the resultant surprisingly short life of the flywheel (yes, the flywheel;
not the clutch). In the case of our Q'Masters, the friction surface on the
flywheel was a very thin coating of steel deposited on the aluminum flywheel.
(These were not flexplate-type flywheels, but still very low inertia). We
ran two cars (Mazda RX-3 in SP3, about 160 lb-ft) for one season with at
least 2 drivers for each of 20+ solo II events and 3+ Pro Solos. At the end
of the first season, the coating on the 7" flywheel had failed completely
(flaked off) and the 5" was cracked and obviously would soon fail. It was
clear to us that theses clutch/flywheel setups were not optimized for
autocross. In telephone discussions, Q'Master had the following things to
say:
1. Yes, they are prone to heat problems. Slipping the clutch is a big
no-no. The worst source is clutch slippage while driving around the paddock.
NEVER drive the car on to the trailer. A winch is cheaper than a new
flywheel. (We ignored this obviously good advice and perfected carrier
landing maneuvers for trailer loading, instead.8-) Road racers and NASCAR,
according to Q'Master, do not suffer from the same short life problems.
Their clutch "duty cycle" is much different from autocross. Fast shifts do
not cause enough heat build-up to create a problem.
2. Contrary to intuition, a 7.25" clutch will heat up (and fail) faster than
a 5" when slipped. Yes, the forces are lower and the area greater, but the
"surface speed" of the friction surfaces is much higher on a 7.25",
generating more heat.
3. We (QM) will build you a titanium flywheel if you'll pay for the
engineering and for the flywheel.
Given all the above, our compromise solution for year 2 was to machine a new
5" steel center for the flywheel, replacing the original steel as well as the
aluminum while retaining the aluminum rim. (our ring gear was also
aluminum). We ended up with a heat-proof design and a gut feel that the
inertia was somewhere between the original 5" and 7" designs. This setup is
now into its second season with no problems.
(As an aside, the Tilton design uses a replaceable steel friction surface
that has much more mass. It looks like it would out-last the standard
Q'Master for our application.)
In addition to getting that Indy-car engine rev, you will also develop an
appreciation for why Michael and Al still kill their engines leaving the
pits. The clutch actuation is close to a toggle switch action, especially
for the 5". You must slip the tires, not the clutch (to avoid heat buid-up).
This makes it particularly tough to get an ideal pro solo launch, especially
for us solid axle guys. It puts a real premium on getting the proper rear
suspension setup--but that is another thread.
Bottom line: buy the 5", but talk to the manufacturer about how you plan to
use it _before_ you buy.
-Charlie Michael
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Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 21:04:00 +0000
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Rear Upright Fabrication
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Message-Id: <121367.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us>
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059
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-> Because I am not happy with the geometry of these uprights I
-> would like to fabricate my own. I figured that the easiest (hah!)
-> method would be to fabricate them from steel tubing, and sheet
-> steel. Now to the question......What would be the most appropiate
-> material for this application (1020, 4130, 4340, Titanium,
Plain old 1020 steel will be fine. Cold rolled stock is easier to work
with than hot rolled, though considerably more expensive.
I bought great big billets of 2024 aluminum for my front uprights, but
I'm seriously thinking of using fabricated steel for the rears.
==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us=========================DoD# 978=======
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Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 21:46:00 +0000
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: Rear Upright Fabrication
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
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-> If you have the right person doing the welding and heat-treating, I
-> think 4130 would be a good choice because it develops good strength
Given the overstress fudge factors involved for figuring bump loads,
the strength difference between 1020 and 4130 is negligible. If you
whack the car had enough to damage a 1020 upright, you probably would
damage a 4130 upright.
Say your finished 1020 upright weighs 10 pounds. If you could get the
right section thickness of materials, you might get an equivalent 4130
part that weighed 8 pounds. My project car's brake rotors weigh close
to 20 pounds each, the tires close to 30, the hub/bearing assemblies 8,
the caliper/bracket assemblies 8, wheels 22 - by the time I add ball
joints, half the A-arm, shock, and spring weight, etc, I'm right at 100
pounds per corner. Am I going to get excited about two lousy pounds in
the upright? Hell, no. I'm using 2024 aluminum for the uprights, but
they're probably a lot beefier than they have to be.
-> Finally, there is a source for CAST STAINLESS STEEL uprights
-> apparently used by the Trans Am crowd. These may be too strong and
-> heavy
I've seen ads for those. You can get your salt shaker handy, because
here comes my opinion, whether anyone cares or not: typical stainless
steel alloys (3xx, 4xx) have no place in any critical application. The
tensile numbers look good, but most stainless will fracture long before
the rated tensile limits are reached, particularly if there are large
section changes involved. Plus most alloys are righteous bastards to
machine wrt getting smooth bearing seats and proper threads.
==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us=========================DoD# 978=======
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Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 22:02:00 +0000
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: Welding Rods
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-> fooling with chrom moly. I intend to build a few objects and then
-> test with a large hammer ( Its my understanding that improper
-> pre-heating and improper stress relieving causes brittleness ).
The brittleness problem is much-overrated as long as you're using 4130
alloy for its intended purpose. 4130 (often called "chrome moly") was
developed for tubular aircraft structures in WWI. Since them there
newfangled electric welders were still novelties, 4130 was created with
gas welding in mind. Stress-relief of tubular or thinwall structures
could be done with the same torch you welded with; nobody had a heat
treat oven large enough to take an entire airframe.
For thick section welds, you'd be better off either using a different
alloy, or having it professionally heat treated. Most heat treat shops
charge according to a formula based on the weight and section
thicknesses, and whether it has to be fixured to prevent warping.
Steel prices vary around the country, but I pay X for hot rolled 1020,
2.5X for cold rolled 1020, and 5X for 4130. Considering the ratio of
the minimal strength difference to the maximal price difference, it's
hard to justify 4130 most stuff.
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From: Zadok7000@aol.com
Message-Id: <950429153415_100836507@aol.com>
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Subject: Brakes etc
I hope these questions don't seem trivial or bothersome. I own four Opel GT
cars. I'm in the process of building two from the ground up the way i want
them. The way the factory should have made them. I'm seriously thinking about
entering one in next years Silver State. A car under 2000# with 375+ hp
should make a good showing if i build it properly. ATE has the brake parts i
could use to slow the thing down but i haven't priced it all yet and i have
this feeling that Brembo or something else will be more effective and
economical. Who can i talk to on the west coast about fitment etc. I have
access to a Opel 2.4 engine with a steel crank and i have the fuel injection
but the head work isn't done and i haven't done my calculations to determine
what turbo i need. I'm going to use a Getrag 5 speed trans and i wonder if it
makes any sense to try to put a Tilton clutch in it. I don't think they give
those things away and price is a major consideration so how much does a multi
plate dry unit cost? I don't even want to know what carbon plates cost. By
the way, is a water cooled turbo housing a good idea?
I've been following the thread on the clutches and have more questions.
Motorcycles have multi-plate clutches that do the job very well. Porsche has
a set up that i think came on 928 cars. I know the bikes use wet clutches and
the Tilton and Q-master are dry but i don't see why they can't be slipped and
last with the proper flywheel facing 4340 or something else. I'd like to be
able to use a multi-plate clutch in a hot road car not a stop-light gp car. I
realize that without the mass of a heavy flywheel, the clutch has to be
slipped more for a smooth launch, and the clutch doesn't have to engage like
a toggle switch. I think it is doable with a few mods. I'd like some opinions
about how to go about it I actually have no hands on experience with Tilton
etc but was a mechanic for Kawasaki a few years ago and have experience with
those clutches.
I have considered turning my own rotors but still have to buy calipers, front
and rear. Right now, i have two piston fixed ATE front calipers and drums in
the rear. Ican convert the rear to discs using ATE calipers with a cable
operated emergency brake built in. I wonder if Brembo makes a similar set up.
Four piston calipers are preferable to the small inadequate two piston type.
Can someone give me an idea of the difference between Motec and Electromotive
engine management systems? Price is one.
Why does an intercooler cost $1000 and my oil cooler which is made by the
same process and materials cost $100? Yes, the intercooler is bigger and
thicker but not ten fold. I don't think they are fairly priced. What did i
miss?
The Opel has a unit body and i intend to mig weld all the important joints
and seams to make it stiffer. Any advice?
I'm also gathering materials for molds for fiberglass doors and hood. I'd
like to use carbon fiber and epoxy but i don't have access to an oven for the
proper cure. I don't even know how much the carbon cloth would cost. Can
someone give me a ballpark figure? I've seen kevlar used to reinforce high
stress areas on carbon. Why?
I think i've taken enough space and time here and would appreciate any
knowledge passed on to me. Thanks.
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From: "Bill Sulouff" <sesquive@mailbox.syr.edu>
Organization: Bildon Motorsport
To: AUDIDUDI@delphi.com
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 15:10:39 -500
Subject: BTCC Struts (was; VW chassis)
Cc: wheeltowheel@abingdon.eng.sun.com, racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Priority: normal
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> > Side note- Anyone know what kind of strut/shock absorber that the guys
> > running 900-1000 lb./in. spring rates on their touring cars in GB are
> > using? My guess is that the readily available Koni and Bilstein
> > units here in the states wouldn't cut it.
>
> Nearly all of the suspension components used on the BTCC cars -- from shocks
> and struts to subframes, etc. -- are fabricated by the teams using custom or
> made-to-order parts. As such, no one uses any over-the-counter Bilsteins or
> Konis. If you'd like to read more about these cars, the UK magazines Racecar
> Engineering and/or RaceTech
Jeff,
I subscribe to both and that is partly what prompted my question.
There are many references to a strut/shock which has a rising rate as
a function of piston speed, not position. I doubt that most teams
produce their own shocks. I worked on an IMSA GTU team with a
million dollar budget, and we used off the shelf Penskes as did many
others including GTX and GTP. (rebuilt and valved in house) Teams outside of F1 just
don't have the resources $$ to fabricate such specific parts in
general. I saw, for instance that most DTM teams used Bilsteins.
I haven't seen a Fox, Carrerra or Penske catalog lately. Are these
guys making anything with non linear, (relative to piston speed)
damping rates? Are there new high tech. players in the shock game?
P.S. Any of our friends on the old side of the pond (GB) know anything about
LEDA dampers? My suspicion is that these are used by some of the
BTCC teams as the RCEng. advert matches the articles' descriptions to
a "t". Cost, fitments, etc.?
Thanks,
Bill
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From: gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu (Henry David Sommer)
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Subject: Re: BTCC Struts (was; VW chassis)
To: sesquive@mailbox.syr.edu (Bill Sulouff)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 20:59:50 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: AUDIDUDI@delphi.com, wheeltowheel@abingdon.eng.sun.com,
racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
In-Reply-To: <199504302032.QAA23965@mailbox.syr.edu> from "Bill Sulouff" at Apr 30, 95 03:10:39 pm
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Bill Sulouff wrote
>
> I haven't seen a Fox, Carrerra or Penske catalog lately. Are these
> guys making anything with non linear, (relative to piston speed)
> damping rates? Are there new high tech. players in the shock game?
From talking to Dick Anderson at Carerra thiers definatly are. He
said Fox's weren't and I don't know about Pen$ke.
Henry Sommer | gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology
Year 88 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | ME and MATE | FSAE since 92
car # 66 | 23 | 23 | 42 | 42 | 99 | 99 | Maintainer of FSAE mailing list
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 17:30:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dirk Broer <BROERD@kaos.gsfc.nasa.gov>
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Message-Id: <950502173041.56b@kaos.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Welding, to pre-heat or not to pre-heat ChromeMoly
All the books that I've seen discuss welding of 4130 - but in the context of
gas welding (oxy-acetalene). Hence the question I posed earlier: For TIG
welding do I have to pre-heat 4130?
Appearantly yes. Going through the University of Maryland's Book store -
specifically the engineering section - found a whole section on welding,
brazing and soldering.
The book basically said that based on the carbon ( I think it was carbon )
content pre-heat was necessary. Pre-heat from 200deg F to 500 deg F depending
on the carbon content. 4130 would fall in the middle - about 350deg pre-heat.
Stress releiving was done at 1050-1250 deg F depending on the thickness of the
material. If you had a big enough oven 1050 would be O.K.
If anyone sees anything wrong with the above please post/e-mail.
I intend to fool around with some tie-rod sleaves. Global West sells them (I
don't even know the price). But I can get 4130 tubing and 4130 threaded ends
for thin-wall tubing easily. I figure I can control the warpage pretty easily
and by turning the piece - this would be a pretty straight forward weld.
Does anyone know the thread type on the average tie rod end? Hope its the same
as the standard spherical rod ends.
Dirk
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From: Zadok7000@aol.com
Message-Id: <950503141343_105443234@aol.com>
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Subject: Brakes etc from saturday
I posted a few questions and checked my mail to see if it was delivered. It
appears it was. What happened? I was counting on some replies from you guys.
I'll just have to get my answers elsewhere,but i am disappointed. It was no
problem to discuss coat hangers for welding rod.
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Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 12:58:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rich Keenan <rich@quack.kfu.com>
To: Dave Williams <dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us>
Cc: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Subject: Re: Rear Upright Fabrication
In-Reply-To: <121370.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us>
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The Formula Mazda people at Valley Motor Center in Van Nuys, CA use an
aluminum casting for rear uprights. If they aren't the SoCal people you
were talking about, you may want to give them a call.
Rich
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id AA195231198; Wed May 3 15:59:58 1995
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 15:59:58 -0400
From: bkelley (Brian Kelley)
Message-Id: <199505031959.AA195231198@pms706.pms.ford.com>
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: Brakes etc from saturday
[ This was forwarded to me by Skod. I have already responded to the
original author on why I thought she didn't get much response (and
I agree with Skod). Also, the poster didn't bother to sign her name to the
post. Who wants to respond to a "nameless someone from AOL"? - Brian ]
>From: Scott.Griffith@Eng.Sun.COM (Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware)
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 12:48:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Brakes etc from saturday
On May 3, Zadok7000@aol.com wrote:
> I posted a few questions and checked my mail to see if it was delivered. It
> appears it was. What happened? I was counting on some replies from you guys.
> I'll just have to get my answers elsewhere,but i am disappointed. It was no
> problem to discuss coat hangers for welding rod.
Oh, you mean there were *questions* somewhere in that 1000 word single
paragraph? Must have missed them. I think you'll find that the reason
that most people haven't answered you is that you put them off by
hiding your questions way down in the middle of a blob of fairly
unreadable text.
You have questions? Ask them. Make it succinct, and you 'll get
answers. Ramble on, and half the people who would otherwise help you
out will move on to other, more important things in their lives. Like
work, for example, which is where most members of this list are when
they're reading their mail.
You want help from folks out here on the Internet, you should cut to
the chase. Your disappointment is a function only of your own writing
style. You wanted a reply? You got one. Now, what was it you wanted to
know?
-skod
--
Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware
Nor Cal SAAC/Green Flag Driving Association driving instructor
(and driver, of anything that turns both right and left,
and can pass tech...) Return Path : skod@sun.COM
---
bkelley@pms706.pms.ford.com
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From: Matthew Loew <loew@mtu.edu>
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Subject: Re: Rear Upright Fabrication
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com (racecar fabrication mailing list)
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 00:37:55 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950503125614.23077A-100000@quack.kfu.com> from "Rich Keenan" at May 3, 95 12:58:26 pm
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I will finally put my two cents into this thread. We here at
Michigan Tech are casting aluminum uprights ourselves for the FSAE
car. We made wooden patterns and went to our materials dept, melted
down some aluminum engine heads (Fords I think) and poured them
into a sand mold. We had a dude from the department help us and
had the right equipment, but other than that it was pretty easy.
We cast front and rear uprights, a rocker for the mono-shock front
and a pedal mounting board.
if you are in the area (Pontiac, 18-20 May) come check us out!
-matthew
__________________________________________________________________________
MTU Formula SAE Banzai Biker | matthew ian loew-SpeedRacer-loew@mtu.edu
__ __o | Web: http://www.me.mtu.edu/~loew/
[]_.-' (Q_,._ _ \<_ |
`(*)[14]___(*)Z> (_)/(_) | "I am designed to win." A. Senna 1960-94
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 16:20:58 -0400
From: bkelley (Brian Kelley)
Message-Id: <199505042020.AA264628858@pms706.pms.ford.com>
To: racefab
Subject: List down
The list will be down from roughly 10:00 AM EST Friday through sometime
Monday afternoon.
Brian
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From: JMeyer14@aol.com
Message-Id: <950503233328_106141591@aol.com>
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Subject: Re: Possible rehash of anti-stuff
On 4/27/95 Ev Paddock wrote about anti-squat and four link rear suspension--
I too just found the list and missed any previous anti-geometry discussion,
but I do have experience tuning four link rear suspension on a dirt late
model.
Basically the anti-sqat tuning for the four link is the same as for a
standard three link. (The point of intersection of the upper and lower links
in relation to a line running from the rear tire contact point through the
center of gravity--or something like that). There are more accurate
descriptions in the "chassis books", and in articles written by Herb Adams in
Circle Track (May 1993 page 106; April 1990 page 132; January 1989 page 102;
September 1992 page 72).
The main difference between three and four link is that the four changes the
effect of the braking forces by floating the caliper mounting brackets, which
are then located by their own radius rod (the fourth link) directing braking
forces into the chassis via the rod.
You can favor one side of the car by running the rods at different angles and
most dirt setups do just that. (Brackets with a selection of mounting holes
on the chassis). The rear steer effects of these options can get pretty wild.
The only setup suggestions I've seen are from AFCO products, somewhere in
Indiana, I'm looking for the catalogue.They sell the kit and have some
starting points.
I have never seen a four link successfully run on asphalt. I believe the probl
em has to do with unloading the rear under braking. I know that wheel hop
means too much antisquat, but it seems that even before you reach wheelhop a
lot of antisquat will work in reverse and lift the rear axle on hard braking?
Anyone know about this stuff?
I too would be interested in reviewing any previous "anti" discussions or
hearing from anyone who has experience.
Hope this might be some help.
Jim Meyer
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 15:19:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bob Mahoney <bob@execpc.com>
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To: Brian Kelley <bkelley@pms706.pms.ford.com>
Cc: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Subject: Re: Potato chip clutches
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On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, Brian Kelley wrote:
> > to get a clean launch is acceptable. So if your driveshaft, rear end,
> > and axles are of sufficient strength to handle a severe launch, then the
> > 7" (or is it 7.5?) is a perfect application.
>
> Dumping the clutch at the line should be acceptable. I need to
> upgrade my driveshaft, but the rest of the drivetrain should be fine
> (full floater 9" rear and toploader transmission).
Last weekend I twisted one of the 9" floater axles into a pretzel. The
axles were old, but were of good chrome-moly, gun drilled construction.
The new clutch is the culprit, one too many hard launches.
As the folks at Behlings Circle Track pointed out, the axles must now be
considered an expendable item. They said the same about the driveshaft
when I converted from an old steel shaft to a new Quartermaster aluminum
driveshaft: "The driveshaft in your car is now a maintenance item."
I plan on changing the driveshaft and axles once or twice per
season, whatever the budget will allow.
bob
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 15:26:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bob Mahoney <bob@execpc.com>
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To: Brian Kelley <bkelley@pms706.pms.ford.com>
Cc: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Subject: Re: Rear Upright Fabrication
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On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, Brian Kelley wrote:
> The Roush cars use uprights fabricated from sheet, not cast. They're
> impressively lightweight.
Speaking of Roush, how do you know such things? I'm not doubting your
info, I'm just jealous of your sources . . .
Reading the Nascar newsgroup I found an entertaining thread discussing
"solid" reasons why Roush will probably move to Pontiac for 1996. Yeah,
right.
bob
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 15:48:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bob Mahoney <bob@execpc.com>
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To: Brian Kelley <bkelley@pms706.pms.ford.com>
Cc: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Subject: Roush Racing
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More thoughts on Roush racing . . .
I just closed the deal today to buy the 1993 Roush Mustang TA body from
the John Goodings Trans-AM car. It is in "show quality" shape, still has
the full paint job and markings from its duty as the Pepsi Crystal Light car
in the 1993 TA season. Neat stuff, eh?
Here is the plan: Used Ford race cars in this area of racing (TA, GT1,
GTO) seem to be much more expensive than are used GM based race cars.
I'm not sure why - perhaps a result of the lack of supply of low cost
Ford parts? Supply and demand . . . the demand for Ford stuff is lower
than for GM (look at the number of GM circle track racers vs. Ford), but
the supply of Ford equipment is even more restricted. Ever try to buy
titanium rods for a Chevy vs. a Ford? Same brand, same quality, double
price for Ford.
With that premise, here is the plan: This winter, or the one after that,
I'll purchase a used GM (Chevy or Pontiac) Trans-AM or GT1 car. They are
sold for reasonable prices as a roller, no engine or transmission.
Immediately yank the GM body and have my Crystal Light body mounted on
it. Also build up a nice Ford engine and get a 5 speed transmission.
I assume the total cost of this project will be much, much lower than
buying some 5 year old, $60,000 Ford GT1 or Trans-AM car.
What do you think?
bob
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 17:37:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dirk Broer <BROERD@kaos.gsfc.nasa.gov>
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Message-Id: <950510173725.928@kaos.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Axles and driveshafts (was Re: Potato chip clutches)
>On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, Brian Kelley wrote:
>
>> > to get a clean launch is acceptable. So if your driveshaft, rear end,
>> > and axles are of sufficient strength to handle a severe launch, then the
>> > 7" (or is it 7.5?) is a perfect application.
>>
>> Dumping the clutch at the line should be acceptable. I need to
>> upgrade my driveshaft, but the rest of the drivetrain should be fine
>> (full floater 9" rear and toploader transmission).
>Last weekend I twisted one of the 9" floater axles into a pretzel. The
>axles were old, but were of good chrome-moly, gun drilled construction.
>The new clutch is the culprit, one too many hard launches.
Excuss the ignorance. What is the difference between a "full floater 9" and
the the regular stock one? To me full floating means 1 Ton truck - you know 8
lug axles. By my definition full floating means the axle itself supports no
weight - failure of the axle shaft will not cause any problem with the wheel.
>As the folks at Behlings Circle Track pointed out, the axles must now be
>considered an expendable item. They said the same about the driveshaft
>when I converted from an old steel shaft to a new Quartermaster aluminum
>driveshaft: "The driveshaft in your car is now a maintenance item."
Could anyone comment on the carbon fiber driveshafts? What is the fatigue
characteristics of carbon fiber anyway? I suspect the resins could degrade.
I do know they've become the trick of the week for higher dollar drag racers.
As for axle shafts. Consider Strang Hy-tuf axles. They have a 5 year
warrantee if you use 35 spline version (don't know about limitations). The ad
I saw said "high nickel alloy steel" - I don't know if this is the kind of
steel that doesn't take load reversals well (Don't have _Engineer To Win_ in
front of me). But if not, seems like it might save you some money.
BTW bob, How did you get the old axle out? I've pretzeled a drive shaft (
seven twists before it broke! - imagine a drinking straw) and shear a drive
shaft ( 6months after the pretzel ) but never an axle.
Actually I prefer to break the driveshaft - about $100 to repair assuming the
yokes are O.K. Of course the first repair only lasted 6 months....
Dirk
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id AA162942792; Thu May 11 13:19:52 1995
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 13:19:52 -0400
From: bkelley (Brian Kelley)
Message-Id: <199505111719.AA162942792@pms706.pms.ford.com>
To: racefab@pms706.pms.ford.com
Subject: Re: Milliken book
Neil Roberts and I were discussing the Milliken book offline and I
thought his comments were worth sharing (with his permission, of
course), since they were a bit different from mine. I know at
least one other person on the list who has the book. Any othe
opinions are of course welcome..
Brian
-- [ From: Neil Roberts * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] --
Howdy, Brian,
> Tune to Win is an excellent book and everyone should have a copy.
But for
> suspension related information, Millikens book covers much more and
in
> great detail.
I read every single word of Milliken's book. I found it to be
excrutiatingly thorough, correct, and conventional. It was a useful
effort because no one else has compiled such a complete description of
the theory of cornering. The most useful new (to me) concept was the
Milliken moment method graph.
Despite all of that, I came away somewhat disappointed with the book.
There was very little new information there, and he lightly brushed
over some very important concepts. Also, only engineers will comprehend
this book.
---
bkelley@pms706.pms.ford.com
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Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 20:24:34 -0700
To: wheeltowheel@abingdon.Eng.Sun.COM, racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com
From: cak@dimebank.com (Chris Kantarjiev)
Subject: Hawk Exhaust Gas Analyzer
I was just given one of these; unfortunately without directions!
It has a tailpipe sniffer that leads to a flat box with two heated wires.
One is exposed to the tailpipe (sort of) and the other is isolated.
The box has an analog meter, two knobs (balance and set) and a switch
(set/test). The scales are
Gasoline 16 .........13.............11 lbs
Lean............................Rich AIR/FUEL
LP gas 16.....................11
Carbon Monoxide 0...........9 (CO%)
There's a legend "Balance" and a mark right over 13 on the top scale, and a
small green box and "Check" under the 9 CO mark.
The circuit board has a few precision resistors, the two pots and switch,
and two diodes on the battery leads.
The intent is clear, but I haven't guessed how to set the pots - and
they're clearly critical, since I can make it read most anything by
twisting them!
Anybody used one before?
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Date: 13 Jun 95 10:46:23 EDT
From: "John 'JayDee' Douthit" <71201.2642@compuserve.com>
To: Shelby Club List <norcal-saac@trenco.eng.sun.com>
Cc: Bay-Area Racers List <ba-racers@greeble.eng.sun.com>,
RaceFab List <racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com>
Subject: Fwd: FW: Viruses on Computer ...
Message-Id: <950613144622_71201.2642_EHB107-1@CompuServe.COM>
FYI....It may not apply to most
Regards, JayDee
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Subject: Fwd: FW: Viruses on Computer ...
Subj: Fwd: FW: Viruses on Computer Bulletin Boards.
Date:95-06-13 01:05:20 EDT
From: Ronin 0048
To: Jten here, Jessthedog, JGEO, JayDeze
sumthin u all mite b intressted 'n...
-----------------
Forwarded message:
Subject: FW: Viruses on Computer Bulletin Boards.
Date: 95-06-12 11:51:33 EDT
From: MSYA@chevron.com (Yamashita, Marle)
To: ronin0048@aol.com
From: Yamashita, Marlene -MSYA
To: OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject: FW: Viruses on Computer Bulletin Boards.
Date: 1995-06-12 08:37
Priority:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fyi - beware ....
----------
From: MORK, G.K. (Ken) -GKMO
To: AFIS_CONSULTANTS; AFIS_CORE_TEAM; AFIS_ATD_CORE-TEAM
Subject: Viruses on Computer Bulletin Boards.
Date: Monday, June 12, 1995 8:16AM
PROTECT YOURSELF - VIRUS LOOSE
There is a version of PKZIP on BBS (INTERNET) that is a TROJAN
horse program that activates upon program execution.
IT WILL ERASE YOUR HARDDISK IF YOU USE IT.
The trojan versions are pkz300b.exe and pkz300b.zip.
Following is a note downloaded from the PKWARE BBS which
should be taken very seriously.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Do not trust or use ANY version of PKZIP other than
1.10, 1.93, 2.04c, 2.04e or 2.04g.
All other versions currently circulating on BBS's are
hacks or fakes.
PKZ300B is a confirmed TROJAN release.
DO NOT download or run this version.
It will attempt to destroy your HD.
!! The current version of PKZIP and PKUNZIP is 2.04G !!
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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 14:57:19 -0400
From: Brian Kelley <bkelley@pms706.pd9.ford.com>
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Subject: VIRUS junk mail
Please don't post computer related "warning" messages to the racefab
or Asedan mailing lists. Anyone interested in virus information is
welcome to subscribe to one of the virus mailing lists.
I've now added keyword searches to the mailing list software which
will block all posts with the words "virus" or "trojan" (apologies to
any racers sponsored by the latter ;-)
Racefab and Asedan content:
I really had a great wrestling match (for various reasons)
re-installing the headers in my race car this weekend. In the end, I
won. But the fibers from the header wrap took their toll and bothered
my arms, face and neck for the rest of the wrenching session. So, the
rather obvious tip is to wet the header wrap before working with the
headers to cut down the fiber dust. It should also make the header
wrap less prone to damage.
Brian
--
bkelley@pms706.pms.ford.com
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From: "JAMES KENNETH HICKS" <HICKS@engr.engr.scarolina.edu>
Organization: College of Engineering
To: racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:56:28 EST
Subject: composits
Priority: normal
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I wanted to know if any of you know of any good composite books on
the market? I would also like to know who would be the best
person(s) to contact for help in this area (autoclave, vaccuum
bagging, etc.) or who tends to lend some help. Maybe people who deal
with airplanes?
thanks,
Ken
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From: Scott.Griffith@Eng.Sun.COM (Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 08:15:17 -0700
In-Reply-To: "JAMES KENNETH HICKS" <HICKS@engr.engr.scarolina.edu>
"composits" (Jun 20, 9:56am)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: "JAMES KENNETH HICKS" <HICKS@engr.engr.scarolina.edu>,
racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com
Subject: Re: composits
On Jun 20, Ken Hicks wrote:
> I wanted to know if any of you know of any good composite books on
> the market? I would also like to know who would be the best
> person(s) to contact for help in this area (autoclave, vaccuum
> bagging, etc.) or who tends to lend some help. Maybe people who deal
> with airplanes?
Get the Aircraft Spruce catalog (Aircraft Spruce and Specialty
Company, 201 West Truslow Ave., Fullerton, Ca. 92632, (714)870-7551.
They sell a whole host of excellent books on the topic, intended for
homebuilders of high-performance aircraft. Just a sampling of the
titles:
Moldless Composite Sandwich Homebuilt Aircraft Construction- Rutan
($14.50)
Composite Aircraft Design- Hollman ($36.00)
Composite Construction for Homebuilt Aircraft- Lambie ($19.95)
Industrial Resin Putties/Gel Coat Formulation- Wills ($10 each)
Composite Basics- Marshall ($30)
Designing with Core- Loken/Hollman ($30)
They also sell composite raw materials in any quantities, as well as
other aircraft supplies that are _extremely_ useful to the racer (ever
need just 2 feet of 4130 airfoil-section tubing?). These folks are
good people, and the catalog is a must have. My eternal thanks to
Carroll Smith for writing them up in his books, otherwise I would never
have known that they were there...
-skod
--
Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware
Nor Cal SAAC/Green Flag Driving Association driving instructor
(and driver, of anything that turns both right and left,
and can pass tech...) Return Path : skod@sun.COM
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From: "Allison M. Welty" (CCAC) <awelty@PICA.ARMY.MIL>
To: hicks@engr.engr.scarolina.edu
Cc: racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com
Subject: info on composites
Message-Id: <9506201413.aa28549@CCAC1.PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Ken,
A good reference book is Composite Design by Stephen W. Tsai, published
by Think Composites. There's also a bi-monthly journal, named Advanced
Composites, which may be helpful. You should be able to find both in
any engineering school's library...
Allison
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From: CASSISIV@saintanne.ksc.nasa.gov
To: HICKS@engr.engr.scarolina.edu, racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com
Subject: RE: composits
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 12:48:00 EDT
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Just adding my two cents worth.
We recently has a three day seminar on composites here at KSC and it was
given by Dr. Willian Jordan, Ph.D., P.E., who is an Associate Professor in
the Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, Louisiana Tech University, Ruston, LA.
He looked to be one of the most knowledgeable people around on Composites
and might be worth contacting him for answers. During the lectures, he made
us aware of publications in the field, and two that appeared to be the top
notch ones are:
"Joining of Composite Matrix Materials"
by Mel M. Schwartz
Pub: ASM International, $65 (member price)
"Engineered Materials Handbook - Vol 1, Composites"
ASM International
( this one looked to be the best all around handbook covering
everything about composites)
One other thing while we are on the subject, I recently received an
excellent metals properties handbook MIL-HDBK-5 ( like 1,200 pages worth!)
FREE ( yup, FREE as in no cost) from the Dept. of Defense Printing Service.
This service provides government documents free to the general public ( our
taxes paid for the compilation, so -Free). Here's how to go about getting a
copy: call the DODSSP Special Assistance Desk (215) 697-2667/2179 to obtain
a customer number and printed instructions. This number is then used with
"TELESPECS" automated telephone ordering service ( you call and talk to a
computer with an irritating computerized voice) and can order whatever you
desire.
Anyway, for what it was worth....... :-)
Vince
----------
From: JAMES KENNETH HICKS
To: racefab
Subject: composits
Date: Tue, Jun 20, 1995 9:56AM
I wanted to know if any of you know of any good composite books on
the market? I would also like to know who would be the best
person(s) to contact for help in this area (autoclave, vaccuum
bagging, etc.) or who tends to lend some help. Maybe people who deal
with airplanes?
thanks,
Ken
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 17:34:02 EDT
From: MFAX64A@prodigy.com ( NEIL W ROBERTS)
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To: racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com
Subject: Aluminum rotors?
-- [ From: Neil Roberts * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] --
Does anyone use aluminum brake rotors?
Hawk sells pads for aluminum rotors, so I presume somebody does.
If you know of a car that uses them, please fill us in on the details:
car weight, tire type and size, type of racing, etc.
Thanks,
Neil
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 18:50:29 -0500
To: racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com
From: scott@eats.com (Scott Mitchell)
Subject: Re: Aluminum rotors?
Cc: MFAX64A@prodigy.com ( NEIL W ROBERTS)
Content-Length: 2418
Neil Roberts wrote:
>Does anyone use aluminum brake rotors?
>Hawk sells pads for aluminum rotors, so I presume somebody does.
>
>If you know of a car that uses them, please fill us in on the details:
>car weight, tire type and size, type of racing, etc.
On Squirt, one of our Formula SAE cars at Virginia Tech, we used Duralcan
disks. The Duralcan material is a aluminum Metal Matrix composite. If
memory serves It is essentially aluminum combined with aluminum oxide and
silicon carbide. [I think I have the details at home, let me know if you
want specifics.]
Details: 700-750lb w/ driver, 440 tires 10" diameter, type of racing
Autocrossing - but it can run for 7.5 miles at a time (more in
testing)
Rear: 8" wide rear tires, single disk rear (on torsen diff - 10" diameter)
Front: 6" or 8" front, 7.5" diameter front disks
Machining Duralcan is a problem, because without diamond tipped tools
you'd be constantly resharpening and replacing the tools...and we were.
Interestingly we had more success drilling holes with masonry bits than
metal drill bits.
The disks work differently than steel. The pads leave a coating on the
disk. And you don't use groves or holes - it only hurts performance. Oh,
and when I asked the engineers how to break in the disks/pads...the
answer was abuse them (ie get the heat up).
Unfortunately, they never turned out as well as was hoped. The pad
technology hadn't reached racing performace yet. At that time (3 years
ago) the pad manufacturers (Allied Signal and <mumble> [sorry I can't
remember the company name, but they are located somewhere in Virginia]
were developing their pads. They were street compounds...they were
hoping to be able to last the service life of the vehicle. That pad
material didn't work well for racing applications. The <mumble> pads
were better than the Allied Signal ones. But even then they were only
seeing about 0.4 cf. Better than street pads, but not near the race
pads.
I too noticed the Hawk ad. Perhaps now the aluminum MMC rotor / pad
technology has advanced to where they might be a good substitute.
Scott
__________________________________________________________________________
Scott Mitchell Education & Technology Solutions, Inc.
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From: gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu (Henry David Sommer)
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Subject: Re: Aluminum rotors?
To: racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com (race fab)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:13:54 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <v01510100ac10fbbbceba@[199.73.33.4]> from "Scott Mitchell" at Jun 23, 95 06:50:29 pm
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Scott Mitchell wrote
> On Squirt, one of our Formula SAE cars at Virginia Tech, we used Duralcan
> disks. The Duralcan material is a aluminum Metal Matrix composite. If
> memory serves It is essentially aluminum combined with aluminum oxide and
> silicon carbide. [I think I have the details at home, let me know if you
> want specifics.]
I looked at using the Duralcan once. The material was a castable
alloy of AL and a ceramic that was supposed to have some really good
thermal properties. They said that they had tested some rotors of some
king of late model type car and that Toyota was looking at using it for
rotors. It was also supposed to make good cylinder liners, drive shafts,
and pistons. I once saw an article on it for pistons in the SAE mag
(Automotive Engineering). The cost of have the rotors made by a shop that
Duralcan recommended kept us from doing it. The rates were about normal
for machining since they already had the tooling.
There are other Formula SAE teams that currently use Al rotors. I
believe that Rochester Institute of Technology makes their own and then
puts a special coating on them.
I have also seen AL rotors listed for go karts.
Why isn't Ti used for rotors. It has very good thermal properties
and at the rate some teams go through rotors it might pay for itself.
Henry Sommer | gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology
Year 88 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | 96 | ME and MATE | FSAE since 92
car # 66 | 23 | 23 | 42 | 42 | 99 | 99 | 5? | Maintainer of FSAE mailing list
place 11 | 2 | 6 | 23 | 3 | 6 | 11 | ? | FSAE-request@list.gatech.edu
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Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:33:35 -0500
To: gt0035b@prism.gatech.edu (Henry David Sommer)
From: scott@eats.com (Scott Mitchell)
Subject: Re: Aluminum rotors?
Cc: racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com
Content-Length: 1968
Henry Sommer [Georgia Tech FSAE] wrote:
> I looked at using the Duralcan once. The material was a castable
>alloy of AL and a ceramic that was supposed to have some really good
>thermal properties. They said that they had tested some rotors of some
>king of late model type car and that Toyota was looking at using it for
>rotors. It was also supposed to make good cylinder liners, drive shafts,
>and pistons. I once saw an article on it for pistons in the SAE mag
>(Automotive Engineering). The cost of have the rotors made by a shop that
>Duralcan recommended kept us from doing it. The rates were about normal
>for machining since they already had the tooling.
Duralcan had cast a few disks for their own testing purposes. We were able
to get those that they hadn't used. They were about 3/8ths thick and came
in 8" and 12" diameters. So all we had to do was cut the inner hole, turn
the outer diameter, drill and countersink the bolt holes, and surface the
disk. Still this was no easy task given that machining ate tools at an
amazing rate. We tried to get access to some diamond tools, but even
borrowing proved impractical. In the end it didn't cost us much more than
a lot of student machining time.
Despite our problems, I'm not convinced that Duralcan won't work as a
brake material. There were quite a few problems with that system and not
all were pad/disk related. Possibly the biggest problem is that we were
stuffing these disks _inside_ 10" 440 wheels (on the front). In this
case we really could have used that extra 0.2 cf of Carbon pads. Perhaps
on a car with bigger disks and 13" wheels, the Drualcan Disks would be
effective.
Scott
__________________________________________________________________________
Scott Mitchell Education & Technology Solutions, Inc.
Email sent to scott@eats.com may or may not be checked after 6/30/95.
After that, important email should be sent to ldmitch@bev.net.
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Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:39:52 -0700
In-Reply-To: scott@eats.com (Scott Mitchell)
"Re: Aluminum rotors?" (Jun 27, 11:33am)
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To: racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com
Subject: Re: Aluminum rotors?
On Jun 27, Scott Mitchell wrote:
> Despite our problems, I'm not convinced that Duralcan won't work as a
> brake material. There were quite a few problems with that system and not
> all were pad/disk related. Possibly the biggest problem is that we were
> stuffing these disks _inside_ 10" 440 wheels (on the front). In this
> case we really could have used that extra 0.2 cf of Carbon pads. Perhaps
> on a car with bigger disks and 13" wheels, the Drualcan Disks would be
> effective.
As long as the car was either very light, or very low-horsepower. At
the PRI show, I spoke with a company that is attempting to manufacture
and market some Duralcan-derived MMC drilled/vented ultralightweight
rotors for Porsche 914, 911, and 928 applications. I picked up their
poop sheets, and of course their data looked just _marvelous_. They
were regaling anyone who would come near whith their feats of
daring-do at Willow Springs, and showing off their brake dyno curves
showning just massively impressive performance.
So I asked the gent there if they had run Laguna Seca yet, or if the
rotors had been wrung out under real racing conditions on these very
heavy cars. After a great deal of fogging, they finally admitted that
they really hadn't, and their products were really only intended for
street use. I pointed out that their Cf/temp curves just simply seemed
to stop at 650degF, and jokingly asked what the performance of the
rotor would be above that temperature. No response, other than a claim
on the order of "The thermal conductivity is so good it'll never get
that hot, so we haven't tested it up there".
Well, of course the rotor _melts_, and there's a bit of a falloff in
performance up there when the working surfaces liquefy in a filme riht
at the rotor/pad interface. The brake torque falls off very quickly.
In the limit case, the outer cheeks collapse into the vent passages,
and the efficiency of the braking system is somewhat compromised. So
for a high-horsepower, heavy car on a hard braking track, you'll
certainly cross that limit without much effort at all. I think that
the attempt to put these on a 928 might be a bit premature..
If you're serious about this technology, you have to have a very,
very good rotor cooling strategy in mind, and it _cannot fail_. The
excellent thermal conductivity of the aluminum alloy used won't save
your bacon if the heat fluxes are too high, or the cold reservoir
you're rejecting the heat into is too small, and you pass the melting
temp. This technology is going to remain a bit limited in application
to the 1000lb-and-under world for a while, I suspect.
One other application where it does pretty well is in dirt sprint cars
and midgets, where the brakes are used more as a fine trim tool for
the handling than as the primary means of hauling the car down from
speed. Usinage Berthold in Canada has a very interesting composite
Al/stainless steel rotor, where the wear surface consists of pie-wedge
shaped stainless wear inserts that are imbedded in a vented Al rotor.
There are pretty interesting and moderately lightweight, but due to the
fact that the stainless inserts are more immune to the surface
melting/self-lubrication phenomenon (especially with aggressive pads),
rotor collapse is a real problem in the limit.
Anyway, brake fade on these Al MMC rotors seems to take on a whole new
meaning. I'm a bit ignorant of the specifics, so fill me in. Do the
Formula SAE cars run on circuits that are conducive to iron rotor
temps up in the 1000degF-and-up range? If so, did you experience
significant surface melting on the MMC guys? I'd like to hear some
detail on that, if you would, especially in terms of vent-sagging.
According to a couple of contacts I have inside Ford, the Duralcan
rotors have also been under evaluation there, but they are not yet
scheduled into production on any car.
They're pretty trick parts, all right. They supposedly do hold up to a
certain level of heat that a sedately-driven passenger car might be
able to kick out under most normal conditions, mostly sorta kinda
handwave handwave. Which is to say that they'll still melt *for sure*
under track conditions. The question of the moment is whether or not
they'll melt when used under a fatride drifting down the backside of
the Rockies at 55 towing a popup tent... To quote Shel Silverstein:
"I'll wait for you over here."
Bizarre aside: It's sorta like the lightbulbs that Bose used in series
with each driver in the old 802s. A lightbulb in series with a
loudspeaker is a very clever soft, self resetting, protective limiter.
As the filament heats, its resistance goes up, protecting the driver.
The Bose folks talked with their vendor for the bulbs, and gave them
the specs for the envelope size, the filament hot and cold resistance,
and so on. The vendor immediately *refused to make them*, saying that
they would burn up instantly if they were ever turned on. The Bose
engineer in charge, an old friend of mine, simply said "Oh, don't
worry about that. We never intend to turn them on..."
-skod
--
Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware
Nor Cal SAAC/Green Flag Driving Association driving instructor
(and driver, of anything that turns both right and left,
and can pass tech...) Return Path : skod@sun.COM
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Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:49:04 EDT
From: " Mark Silverberg " <usfmcsk3@ibmmail.com>
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Subject: (U) Aluminum Rotors
Chrysler has explicitly stated they are pursuing aluminum brake components
such as disks (C&D Nov94, and Wards Auto Word)
Only SAE paper I could find on Aluminum MMC Rotors is listed below(abstract)
*****
TITLE: Development of advanced reinforced aluminum brake rotors
AUTHOR: Dwivedi, Ratnesh (Lanxide Corp.)
PAPER/RPT NO: 950264, Feb 1995, (SAE) MEETING: SAE International Congress and
Exposition, Detroit,
Michigan, USA, 27 Feb 1995 - 02 Mar 1995
ABSTRACT:
Failure of reinforced-aluminum brake rotors under severe dynamometer test
conditions has been characterized by the Maximum Operating Temperature, MOT,
the temperature at which one of the rotor rubbing surfaces fails via scuffing.
It is believed that this failure takes place when the frictional force exceeds
the shear strength of the rotor material. Rotors produced from cast 360 alloy
reinforced with 20 volume percent silicon carbide particulates (360/SiCp(20))
have been found to have MOTs of 449degreesC. The MOT can be raised by
increasing the silicon carbide level in the reinforced aluminum, but is
ultimately limited by lower melting points of the silicon containing alloys
that must be used with this reinforcement to prevent aluminum carbide
formation during processing.
Aluminum composite rotors using aluminum oxide as the reinforcement have been
developed with significantly higher MOT (538degreesC) compared to the silicon
carbide-reinforced analysis of extensive dynamometer test data base, for
developing such alumina-reinforced metal matrix composite rotors. A process
for manufacturing these rotors has been demonstrated on a small scale and will
be discussed in this paper. A manufacturing facility for alumina-reinforced
rotors, scheduled to be operational in the second quarter of 1995, will also
be described.
**********************
Now my opinion: Conductivity of the rotor material does not mean a whole
lot in racing applications with repeated thermal inputs. The questions is
where do you want to conduct it to? The answer is the air - not the wheel
hub (cook the bearing) or the caliper (boil the fluid). What matters is the
rate of convection and radiation. I would argue that once you can insure
protection of wheel bearing and brake fluid you are better off running a
higher temperature (assuming the pad surface can take it). The higher the
temp the higher the rate of heat transfer will be and thus the later you can
brake (in theory). For example a carbon disc/pad runs at extremely high
temps - but the material can take it an the performance is superb.
Why are auto makers looking at Aluminum disks? Because they are looking at
aluminum anything! Actually I believe MMC does have promise for production
applications because of manufacturing techniques in a large scale - it does
have reasonable cooling characteristics for STREET USE - it will save weight.
It may have an application in racing for 1) infrequent brake use 2) vehicles
where the brakes are oversized. But then again you may be better off just
using a downsized conventional system.
Mark Silverberg
x81212 / Fax x29909
Chassis Engineering / Frames & Mounts
USFMCSK3@IBMMAIL.COM
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From: "JAMES KENNETH HICKS" <HICKS@engr.engr.scarolina.edu>
Organization: College of Engineering
To: racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:08:36 EST
Subject: wheel nuts
Priority: normal
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Does anyone know where I can find some .5in fine thread lightweight
open ended tappered wheel nuts? I need them for some Compomotive
wheels. All the ones I found would not fit in the wholes in the
wheel.
Thanks
Ken
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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:04:05 -0500
To: racefab@pms706.pd9.ford.com
From: scott@eats.com (Scott Mitchell)
Subject: Re: Aluminum rotors?
Content-Length: 2092
I sent Scott Griffith's post to a teammate of mine (who is on the net
but not on racefab). He did much/most of the machine work. I think
his responce would be a good addition to this discussion. BTW, Foops
is the car built before Squirt. The "flexing bulkhead" refers to
a small front bulkhead (full monocoque chassis) that took n